 |
Charlie Rose Interview: Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer
on November 1, 2002
 |
|
JOSHKA FISCHER, Foreign Minister, Germany: Election campaign is not the
time when it's very sophisticated in the discussion. But once again, the
majority of the German people will never forget what America has done
for us. And that this huge crowd assembles spontaneously two days after
9/11 in front of the Brandenburg Gate, 100,000 people, one of the biggest
manifestation after the Wall came down in Berlin-- this was a spontaneous
gesture of 100,000 people-- I mean, this matters. And we will never forget.
And you liberated us from the Nazi dictatorship. We didn't do it by ourselves.
You founded our democracy. You gave us the second change. You defended
us during the cold war. And you were very helpful. You were the key players
for the unification. This will never be forgotten, and this is the ground,
this is the common ground of our relationship.
CHARLIE ROSE: And a look at films with the movie critic for The New York
Times magazine, ANTHONY LANE.
ANTHONY LANE, Movie Critic, ``The New Yorker'': There was a time when
you would watch the great movies, and movies made-- movies made life worth
living, you know, whether you were watching a genre noir movie, a noir
movie, or whether you were watching a great screwball comedy, when you
came out, you felt-- you know, you were gunning for action and your life
felt better as a direct result.
And now I get the feeling that movies are sort of-- even when there are
very good filmmakers operating today -- it's like life makes movies worth
living.
CHARLIE ROSE: Fischer and Lane coming up.
Fischer Says German-U.S. Relationship Not in Danger
CHARLIE ROSE: JOSHKA FISCHER is here. He became Germany's foreign minister
in 1998 after the government of Chancellor Helmut Kohl lost elections
to Gerhard Schroeder. He is the leader of the Green Party and Germany's
most popular politician today. He is also a partner in the coalition government
of Chancellor Schroeder. That coalition won in one of the narrowest victory
margins in German elections history in September, 2002.
The foreign minister's just returned from a visit in Washington, where
he met with Secretary of State Powell. He is in New York to meet with
the secretary general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, today. I'm pleased
to have him at this table again to talk about the relationship between
Germany and the United States, the United States and the world and Germany
and the world and Germany and Europe at a crucial time in the history
of both Germany and the United States.
Mr. Foreign Minister, welcome.
JOSHKA FISCHER, Foreign Minister, Germany: Thank you very much.
CHARLIE ROSE: Characterize, if you will, something you have been wrestling
with and defining wherever you go, where U.S.-German relations are today.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, I think the relations are very close, intense, and
in the substance, I think, good because we are, after the United States,
the second biggest contributor of troops in the war against terror. Our
special forces, first time in our history, post-war history, are fighting
shoulder by shoulder together with American special forces in Afghanistan.
Our navy is in the Horn of Africa to control there the sea traffic. And
as we experienced, there was another terror attack after the USS Cole
now, a tanker, Limburg, a French tanker. We have troops on the Balkans,
together with the United States. We have close economic relations. Relations
[unintelligible] people are excellent. And if there are some irritations
coming from the election campaign in Germany, I think we'll overcome these
irritations.
CHARLIE ROSE: How severe do you feel the irritation in Washington at the
election [unintelligible]
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, election years are very specific years, as you experience
here now in the United States, too. But I think Colin Powell-- we had
an excellent meeting, and I think this was very helpful to smooth down
these irritations, or ``rough spots'' as Colin Powell called them.
CHARLIE ROSE: Some people define it by this small piece of evidence. There's
been no conversation between the chancellor and the president. And people
are not even sure that the president will see the chancellor in Prague.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, they will meet-- [crosstalk]
CHARLIE ROSE: --same room.
JOSHKA FISCHER: --all together, and I think-- I mean, I am sure that they
will meet together there. And this will be a historical meeting, and we
should [unintelligible] on this historical meeting. It means enlargement,
further enlargement of NATO. In Copenhagen, we will have the enlargement
of the EU, 10 more members from the former Warsaw Pact. I think this is
the substance. And Germany is playing there a crucial role because it's
mostly Germany who is paying for it under the farm bill, and this is crucial
for the enlargement, for 10 more member states in the EU. Our contribution
to NATO is crucial, and I'm sure -- therefore, I came to Washington to
work on this issue -- that the two leaders will come back to normal business.
CHARLIE ROSE: There is some feeling in Washington that the rhetoric went
too far, and that it showed a lack of appreciation of the role that the
United States had played in Germany, a contribution you pointed out many
times, having to do with the Marshall Plan and having to do with post-World
War II development of a democracy, having to do with the Berlin airlift,
having to do with unification. So many times, America's been there for
Germany, and there is a feeling that the election rhetoric went too far,
that you could have made distinctions, as the French have, about foreign
policy with respect to Iraq, without it getting to where it got.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, I think-- I don't know what the justice-- the former
justice minister said, but I mean, even the impression that there was
a linkage between a terrible criminal as Hitler has been and an American
president-- it's outrageous, and we deeply regret that. And this put us
in a corner, I think, in which we do not belong with our questions about
a possible military campaign in Iraq.
But I mean, look, I was grown up-- born in '48, grown up in southern Germany.
My first English language I learned from-- sentence I learned from my
elder sister was, ``Do you have chocolate? Do you have chewing gum?''
because since the very beginning, I mean, American soldiers for me were
part of my growing up. And we admired the United States.
And there was-- there was a break in the Vietnam war because it was hard
to understand why the country in which we believed freedom and democracy
now acted in that way, and there was a close link between the anti-Vietnam
protest movement in the United States and in Europe and in Germany. But
it was always based on a deep sympathy for the American people, for the
American culture. And therefore, I think this is a debate within friends,
within the family. And there are serious questions about a possibly military
action, whether this is the right priority now. Is the war against terror
won?
And the rhetoric-- I mean, election campaign is-- I don't want to look
back, but election campaign is not the time when it's very sophisticated
in the discussion.
But once again, the majority of the German people will never forget what
America has done for us. And that this huge crowd assembles spontaneously
two days after 9/11 in front of the Brandenburg Gate, 100,000 people,
one of the biggest manifestation after the Wall came down in Berlin--
this was a spontaneous gesture of 100,000 people-- I mean, this matters.
And we will never forget.
And you liberated us from the Nazi dictatorship. We didn't do it by ourselves.
You founded our democracy. You gave us the second change. You defended
us during the cold war. And you were very helpful. You were the key players
for the unification. This will never be forgotten, and this is the ground,
this is the common ground of our relationship.
CHARLIE ROSE: I want to understand your objection to Iraq in just a moment,
but let me come to this point. It is not just the administration that
seems to be concerned. I'm sure have been told or read a piece by former
secretary of state Henry Kissinger, a German by birth, who said the following,
that this is not a question of election rhetoric, that Schroeder's motives
is not the issue, that what is at issue is a kind of anti-Americanism
may have become a permanent temptation of German politics, that if that
rhetoric was so effective in an election, what does it say about how the
electorate feels about America?
JOSHKA FISCHER: I can't agree to that. I was running an election campaign,
and a very successful, by the way, election campaign. And I spoke twice,
sometimes three times a day, to thousands of people, to big audiences.
And I explained our position. And we-- I have to get-- I have to get the
majority in the parliament. I cannot send even one general to reorganize
a U.N. mission in Africa without the permission of the parliament. The
parliament has this by constitution to decide. So I have to make the case.
And believe me, there was no anti-Americanism. I had to make the case
twice to go to war. First time after the unification, first time after
German democracy was founded. Kosovo, I had to make the case and it was
very tough, and we did it. And the second time--
CHARLIE ROSE: It was difficult, though.
JOSHKA FISCHER: It was very difficult.
CHARLIE ROSE: Very difficult.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Very difficult, but it was much more difficult--
CHARLIE ROSE: And this is a case in which you had-- I mean, what does
that say? I'm trying to get at an understanding of Germany today, and
you, who-- as its most popular politician, clearly have your fingers on
the pulse of Germany today.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yeah, but therefore, I--
CHARLIE ROSE: You objected to going to Kosovo, which was a NATO action,
not an American action.
JOSHKA FISCHER: No, but it was not objection. There is a deep feeling
and hesitation because we have a terrible history. I mean, you have a
glorious history since the founding of the United States, since the War
of Independence. There were some mistakes, but all in all, it's a glorious
history. The world is looking with great admiration to the United States,
not to Germany. If I compare our history with France and Britain, they
have a glorious history and a continuity in their history.
We had these terrible 12 years, the Nazi dictatorship, the responsibility
for the Holocaust, the Second World War. There is a deep feeling in the
German people -- and I think this is very positive -- ``hands off'' because
we made this experience with ourselves. I mean, we do not blame anyone
else. But there is a deep feeling, ``Hands off from military action''
because we had this terrible experience with ourselves. So--
CHARLIE ROSE: But--
JOSHKA FISCHER: --to make the case, it's very difficult in Germany. And
I think this is a positive element. You have to convince the people. You
have to take them with you. And we did it in Kosovo, and we did it after
9/11.
CHARLIE ROSE: And you did it in Kuwait.
JOSHKA FISCHER: And we did it in Kuwait. We did it in Horn of Africa.
We did it in Afghanistan.
CHARLIE ROSE: All the places you cited from the beginning of this conversation.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yeah. But I mean, to make the case, I have to convince
myself that this is the right priority, that we have to do it now. And
when I explain that to these big audiences, people do not applaud. But
I looked into the faces, and I saw they accepted it. It has to be done.
You cannot negotiate with these terrible guys, Usama bin Laden, with these
killers. You have to fight them down. You have to destroy them.
But when I was talking about Iraq, then they ask me, and I looked into
their faces, ``Why now? Explain us. What are the reasons?'' And this is
the same question that you have in the debate here in the United States.
CHARLIE ROSE: OK, but let's explore that because-- let me just make sure
I understand what you're saying, that this very strong strain of anti-war
that grew out of a nation reacting to Nazism, has left it, even in 2002,
with an attitude of anti-war, that it is pervasive and-- and significant
element, a mindset of the German people today.
JOSHKA FISCHER: We have more problems to deal with a possible military
action than any other neighbor ally in the Western alliance, based on
our history. This is a fact. And we have-- the government has to deal
with that.
But nevertheless, since 1998, we were part of two important missions in
the Kosovo and Macedonia, and we are part of the mission in the war against
terror and of ISAF mission, and we will take the lead of the U.N. mission
in Kabul after the Turks now.
CHARLIE ROSE: So you say, ``Well, look, we're full with you on the war
against terrorism. We understand Usama bin Laden. We were with you in
Kosovo, when other issues were at stake.'' But when it comes to Iraq,
the American people-- I mean, the German people say no. And you can't
make the case because you don't believe the case has been made to you.
JOSHKA FISCHER: I mean, we are fully supportive in the U.N. resolutions.
I mean, Saddam Hussein is a terrible dictator. He's a risk in the region,
and there was a containment policy who was not unsuccessful since '91.
And I think that he has to comply with all relevant U.N. resolutions.
CHARLIE ROSE: But if he doesn't?
JOSHKA FISCHER: If he doesn't, then we have to calculate the risks. And
this is exactly the same debate you have now in the United States. I find
the same arguments in the United States.
CHARLIE ROSE: But think what your government has said. Your government
has said that, ``We will, even there's a U.N. resolution, not support
Iraq-- a war against Iraq''--
JOSHKA FISCHER: I don't--
CHARLIE ROSE: Even with a U.N. resolution--
JOSHKA FISCHER: I don't-- I don't--
CHARLIE ROSE: --you have said, ``We're not prepared to go to war against
Iraq.''
JOSHKA FISCHER: I don't see a majority in the German parliament for--
CHARLIE ROSE: Notwithstanding a vote in the United Nations.
JOSHKA FISCHER: I mean, this is very-- I don't want now to predict what
will be the outcome. We hope that this resolution will be based on a vote
15 yes, so a unified Security Council, and that Hans Blix and his team
can start its job immediately-- [crosstalk] --and we can avoid a military
action.
CHARLIE ROSE: But you have said, and so has the chancellor, that if military
action comes, ``We are not going to go back on what we said in the election
campaign.''
JOSHKA FISCHER: We are--
CHARLIE ROSE: ``We will not participate in a war against Iraq, no matter
what.''
JOSHKA FISCHER: We are very skeptical about that, yes. That's true.
CHARLIE ROSE: And it is unclear today if you will allow German bases to
be used.
JOSHKA FISCHER: I don't want to give you any speculation, but we have
treaties. We have agreements. And I think all these questions will be
answered in a very responsible way, if there is a need to answer them.
Believe me.
CHARLIE ROSE: Do you worry about this-- moving-- you haven't seen the
evidence that Saddam Hussein cannot be contained. Or said another way,
you believe that Saddam Hussein can be contained, as he has been in the
past.
JOSHKA FISCHER: I think-- when I look now to the threats we have to deal
with, my top priority is the war against terror. I mean, we experienced
now the terror attack in Moscow. Before Moscow, we had Bali. And this
was also a terrible terror attack, where many innocent people had to die.
Before, we had Djerba, Indonesia. And this war against terror is not over.
So we have serious question about that.
But the most serious question is about the day after. I mean, the United
States have the military power to get rid of Saddam. No question. But
are the United States ready to stay there and guarantee peace and stability
in this-- in this terrible dangerous region for a longer term, when they
are in? These were the questions which were-- had to be answered by the
part of the president in '91. And these questions are still valid, I think,
and have to be answered. So it would be very helpful if we could have
some sort of strategic vision. What would be in the day after? What would
be in the follow-up? What is the design of a new Middle East?
CHARLIE ROSE: You just visited with the secretary of state. Couldn't he
explain to you the answer to those questions?
JOSHKA FISCHER: This is an ongoing, ongoing debate.
CHARLIE ROSE: There is also this aspect of it. Put Iraq aside. Some people
who care deeply about Germany have raised this question, that perhaps
-- and Secretary Kissinger is one, and others. Is Germany separating itself
from Europe? Is it, in a sense, taking a different place than Italy, than
France, than Eastern European countries? Are you creating a larger problem
for yourself?
JOSHKA FISCHER: I mean, I had yesterday a personal discussion with Henry,
and I said to him, ``I-- I-- your completely different view''-- and look,
I mean, for me personally, it would be unacceptable because we have three--
the three pillars of German foreign policy and also of our democracy--
but in foreign policy is our relations to the United States in the transatlantic
relationship, European integration of Germany and-- to bring Europe to
the very end of a political union, and our special relationship to Israel.
These are the three main pillars, and there is no change. There will be
no change. I would never accept a change in these three-- [crosstalk]
CHARLIE ROSE: Go ahead.
JOSHKA FISCHER: We had last Thursday, Friday an EU summit. In Copenhagen
in December, we will decide that the EU will enlarge over the former Iron
Curtain. Poland, Czechia, Hungaria will be then members of the European
Union. This means unification of Europe.
We decided-- the chancellor decided to pay the farm bill, de factor, for
this enlarged union and for France and some others. This is very costly.
So if we would separate from Europe, we wouldn't pay the farm bill for
the enlargement. And we have a convention in-- based on the initiative
of Germany, of our government, who is now-- it's our Philadelphia in Europe,
and who is now-- it came to a point where the president of this convention
presented the first proposal, the first draft of a constitution for Europe.
I mean, we are working very hard to bring Europe to full integration,
to political integration, because we think this is not only in our interest
but also in the interest of our neighbors. And only a united Europe will
be a viable partner for the United States in the world of the 21st century.
We don't say farewell to transatlantic relations, and we don't say farewell
to Europe. I think this a completely different view from--
CHARLIE ROSE: Henry Kissinger.
JOSHKA FISCHER: --what Henry said.
CHARLIE ROSE: Here's what he said. ``During the 20th century, the West
tore itself apart''-- he's talking about Germany in both World War I and
World War II. ``During the 20th century, the West tore itself over problems
importantly revolving around Germany. The United States' allies and the
new German government have to dedicate themselves to make sure that history
does not repeat itself.''
That's powerful language--
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: --that you have to worry about history repeating itself,
in terms of international crisis arising around Germany.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Once again, I don't see really that there is any, any
reason for such a concern. We are fully integrated into NATO. We are a
very important partner. We are fully integrated into EU. We are pushing
forward the EU. We are part of important military missions together with
the United States and other allies. And there is no change. We have differences--
a different view in the Iraq issue.
CHARLIE ROSE: Absolutely. I-- I-- but let me-- let me understand. My goal
here is to understand Germany and understand you and your reflection of
Germany because I think that's important for-- for the public debate about
the nature of this relationship, of public concern about it.
Has Germany come in the year 2002 to a place of feeling confident about
itself, and notwithstanding the strain of anti-war that you talked about,
wanting to play a larger and more significant role on the global stage,
not only economically but politically, and wanting to feel, with its new
sense of confidence, that it can engage in a debate with the United States
over global politics without being reminded of all the sacrifices that
America has made for Germany?
JOSHKA FISCHER: We don't want to play a greater role as Germany on the
global stage.
CHARLIE ROSE: You don't?
JOSHKA FISCHER: We want to play-- I mean, we want that Europe, the European
Union, step by step, could play a greater role. And of course, we, as
a big member state of the Europe Union, will contribute to that. Therefore,
for us, it's crucial that we are bringing forward the European integration
process. This is the real core of our policy.
And the second, I think, similar important is the renewal of the transatlantic
relations between a more and more united Europe and the United States.
This is the-- one of the pillars of peace and stability in the 21st century.
And once again, I mean, this-- this terrorist is directed against the
openness of our societies. They want that we must shut down our society.
This is the message because they attacked innocent people in the twin
towers. They attack tourists-- tourists everywhere in the world. They
want that we should shut down our open societies. And believe me, when
things are-- become serious, I mean, when the basic values are questioned
by a terrorist, then you will see that only the United States and Europe
-- not Russia, not China and others -- only the United States and Europe
believe in the basic values of individual freedom, the rule of law, of
democracy, of market economy. I mean, and this is the real ground for
the transatlantic relationship, and Germany is part of that.
CHARLIE ROSE: Let's-- so what is your plan-- you and the fact that you're
here-- how do you go about rebuilding trust between the United States
and Europe, rebuilding an understanding and at least overcoming a quarrel?
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, I think, first of all, we have come back, on the
level of the two leaders, I think to the normal working relations between
close and good allies. And there the visit was very helpful.
But secondly, I think we need a debate about where are the strategic threats?
What are the answers, the common answers? I mean, the strategic debate
is very important, and I think some of the-- of the irritations are a
result of a lack of this strategic debate. But this is not only [unintelligible]
on Iraq. I think, to defining the role, there is a strategic debate in
the United States. I read very carefully and follow very closely about
the new role of the United States in the 21st century.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yes.
JOSHKA FISCHER: And there is a lot of negative impact, watching these
Europeans. There are some ideas that the United States [unintelligible]
have to fight with the wolves in the Hobbsian world, and the Europeans
are peaceniks living in the Kantian world, where eternal peace is reality.
I mean, this, I think, is misleading if this debate goes in this direction.
But it reflects the need of the strategic debate between the United States
and Europe, and Germany is part of Europe. And I try to bring forward
an understanding for the Europe and the German position. And I hope that
we will have this debate in the North Atlantic sphere because this is
very important for both of us.
CHARLIE ROSE: When that debate takes place, tell me what you will say
about the feelings on the part of Germans about American unilateralism.
Because you have spoken that there has been, in your own words, right-wing
intellectuals, you know, who view an American role that does not sit well
with Germans and Europeans.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, I like to debate with those right-wing intellectuals
because it's always very interesting and there's some sort of intellectual
provocation--
CHARLIE ROSE: But these are people who play a prominent position, play
a prominent role in the American government today. I mean, you're talking
about, well, Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, as well
as people like Richard Perle, who are long-time colleagues of them.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yeah, but these are members of the government. I'm talking
about intellectuals.
CHARLIE ROSE: Well, like Mr. Kaplan and others.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yeah, and Kagan--
CHARLIE ROSE: Right. I mean Kagan. [crosstalk] What is it about Kagan
that you find--
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well--
CHARLIE ROSE: --offensive?
JOSHKA FISCHER: It's-- for me, it was astonishing that the new role of
the United States should be defined based on Hobbes. I mean, the United
States were founded on an anti-Hobbes [unintelligible] The optimism and
idealism of the promise of the American Constitution, I mean, still matters
today. And this is-- this mixture of realism and national interest and
the American optimism and idealism I think is the unique cultural pattern
of American policy since the very beginning, and the finest hours in American
policy and in the developing of American power are based on that.
I mean, my country is, well, the greatest success of nation-building in
American history. You gave us the second chance. You defended in the cold
war Europe. But I will never forget--
CHARLIE ROSE: There's no intent to dominate, and no intent to do anything
but promote democracy.
JOSHKA FISCHER: But I never forget-- I never forget. When I was a boy,
Khrushchev came to the United States. I will never forget that. And the
former vice president, Nixon, accompanied him when they were traveling
around the country. And there was this ``kitchen debate'' and about what
was this kitchen debate going? Who can create the better system. Who can
create the better system. And this--
CHARLIE ROSE: Khrushchev-- Khrushchev famously said, ``We will bury you.''
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yeah, but you see, he's buried now. And communism is buried.
So this was-- American power plus nation-building-- this was the formula
for the victory in the cold war in Europe. And I think we have now similar
challenges, more complicated -- more complicated -- much more sophisticated
but similar challenges in other parts of the world. And only if we combine
our strength and if we combine our possibilities we will be successful.
We share the common enemy. Don't forget that.
CHARLIE ROSE: Common enemy is?
JOSHKA FISCHER: International terrorism.
CHARLIE ROSE: OK.
JOSHKA FISCHER: This is the common-- they want to create chaos. They want
to kill people. And have to fight them down.
CHARLIE ROSE: I want to come to the United States, and then also your
own personal evolution. This about the United States-- it is said that
it's probably today the most powerful country since the Roman empire,
too, and that gives it, some say, in comparison with Bismarck, the risk
of being resented by so many that that resentment becomes united and strong,
so that the strongest country in the world is resented by so many that
it becomes counterproductive.
Is that a risk for the United States?
JOSHKA FISCHER: I trust in the American people and American culture. And
if you look to the history of the United States -- and I know a little
bit about the history of the United States but also about the reality
of this huge country -- I mean, the American people are looking much more
inside than outside. They are more interested in their everyday life and
how America is run than in some great ideas about what--
CHARLIE ROSE: But do you think that's good or not?
JOSHKA FISCHER: --should be the-- I think that it's excellent because
this is one of the roots of American power of today, I mean, the reluctantness
of the American people, this mixture of realism and optimism. I mean,
this is very important. To give-- it would be, from my view, unwise to
give up these elements of American culture. But America is crucial. Your
power is crucial for peace and stability in-- [crosstalk]
CHARLIE ROSE: And the United States leadership seems to believe that it
has to uniquely exercise-- I mean, it is the conviction of the people
in Washington that if, in fact, the United Nations won't go along and
if others won't go along, it'll put together a coalition because it has
to stop Saddam Hussein. It cannot risk him becoming a nuclear power--
[crosstalk] --role of the United States in this century.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, we have many terrible guys around the world, of
course, and--
CHARLIE ROSE: Any that you can think of that are worse than Saddam Hussein?
JOSHKA FISCHER: I don't want to make now differences. I mean, we have
the issue of North Korea. North Korea is a terrible dictatorship. And
we have many other terrible situations. But once again, I think it's very
important that even the biggest country, even the biggest power -- and
once again, I-- I underline that the role of the United States for peace
and stability is crucial. India-Pakistan-- I mean, there was the threat
of nuclear escalation some months ago. I experienced that in the office.
Only the power of the United States could put-- balance that. The role
of the United States in Europe and East Asia is crucial.
CHARLIE ROSE: And-- and you've said--
JOSHKA FISCHER: This was my message, by the way, in the election campaign
every day. I mean--
CHARLIE ROSE: Well, but no one is complaining about what you said in the
election campaign.
JOSHKA FISCHER: No, in--
CHARLIE ROSE: Unfortunately, it was not you that created the controversy.
But-- go ahead.
JOSHKA FISCHER: For me, I mean, this is an ongoing strategic debate now,
not only between the allies and the United States but also in the United
States. And I'm sure-- therefore, I said I trust in the American people
and in American political culture, in the American political system, because
it always tend to go into the center. I mean, from the right into the
center, from the left into the center. It always has a tendency to go
into the center. American political culture is always pushing all the
different positions into the center, and I think this is the real important
message.
So let's have the strategic debate, and based on this, I'm sure we'll
find a new definition of the role we have to play all together, and I'm
sure you will find for yourself a definition of your new role.
CHARLIE ROSE: It is also said about Germany today that there is a new
leadership. People look at you today -- prominent leader of a party, prominent
leader of a coalition government, the foreign minister-- your friends
say you love the job. Do you?
JOSHKA FISCHER: Well, ``love'' may be not the right word, but I like the
job very much, yes.
CHARLIE ROSE: Does-- when you were 20-- when you were 30 years old, 25
or 30, with all the activity that you had on the left of the German political
scene, are you surprised at-- at where you are today? Does it-- sometimes
you get up in the morning and say, ``I'm going to the foreign minister's
office, and who would have ever thought''?
JOSHKA FISCHER: No because-- I mean, this would be a longer-- longer discussion
because I had to explain how difficult it had been to grow up as the second
generation not of victims but of perpetrators. I mean, the twilight of
post-war Germany-- this-- and all the struggles, all-- I mean, it was
very complicated. And post-war Germany has to define itself. I mean, the
democracy in Germany was brought by the Allies. It was not a result of
a democratic revolution in Germany. So we had in the '60s and '70s terrible
fights, and even in the '80s, in foreign policy or domestic policy issues--
CHARLIE ROSE: And also battles against terrorism, the Bader-Meinhof gang.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Terrorism. I mean, the left-wing terrorism. And the anti-Vietnam
war movement was also very important. But all in all, I mean, my generation
in Germany, we are grown up with American culture and a deep sympathy
for the United States, or as I said, Bob Dylan was, for my political career,
the most influential-- he played the most influential part because when
I heard, with 17 years old, 16, 17 years old, this music from Bob Dylan,
``Blowin' in the Wind'' and all the others, I-- it was quite clear I cannot,
cannot stay at home. I had to go out and--
CHARLIE ROSE: Had to go out and-- [crosstalk]
JOSHKA FISCHER: --very important.
CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah. Do you believe that in terms of your instincts, say,
you are different than Helmut Schmidt?
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yes, of course. I mean, this is a completely different--
that's the generation of my father.
CHARLIE ROSE: Right.
JOSHKA FISCHER: And this--
CHARLIE ROSE: And you were shaped more by Bob Dylan and opposition to
the Vietnam war than you were World War II, obviously.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Yes and no. I mean, this is-- the Nazi heritage of my
country, I mean, the guilt-- this is a very, very-- this was also one
power we had to fight with and to create democracy based on ``It should
never happen again.'' And therefore, I'm fighting since my whole life
and up to now for the right of minorities against racism, against anti-Semitism
because this is a direct attack not only on innocent people, but it's
an attack on civilization and democracy as such.
And this was another element that-- I mean, we couldn't grow up in the
German tradition because you know what this tradition means, has meant.
So we grew up in the American culture. We were impressed by American pop
songs, by the youth culture, by Woodstock and anything else. We didn't
understand the words. I mean, it sounds funny for you. We didn't understand
the words, but it was impossible to go back to a tradition which was completely
destroyed by the Nazi dictatorship.
And therefore, there is a deep sympathy for American-- sometimes American
style and way of thinking. And maybe some of the problems now are part
of this similarity that our democracy is very close built to the American
democracy.
CHARLIE ROSE: Mr. Foreign Minister, thank you for coming.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Thank you.
CHARLIE ROSE: It's a pleasure to have you on the broadcast, as you suggested,
perhaps we can continue this at another place, at another time. This rather
remarkable and important relationship between your people and the people
of the United States.
JOSHKA FISCHER: Thank you very much.
CHARLIE ROSE: We'll be right back.
Stay with us.
Transcript courtesy of Charlie Rose
|
|
Statements & Speeches
Newsletters
 Printer-Friendly
Page
Email This Article |
|
|
